“The Fox’s Lair” Discussion Post – Come Discuss With Us! *SPOILER WARNING*   43 comments

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What did you guys think of the episode? What was your favorite scene? We’d love to hear from you guys. Let us know in the comments!

Since we try to keep our twitter and Facebook spoiler free for those who haven’t seen the episode yet, we created a post where people can discuss the new episode. So feel free to discuss away in the comments!

***For those who haven’t seen the episode the comments will contain spoilers***

43 responses to ““The Fox’s Lair” Discussion Post – Come Discuss With Us! *SPOILER WARNING*

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  1. I enjoyed it as always. I was waiting for the “jump the shark scene”. I thought it was unnecessary but understand the intent for people who haven’t read the books. Interesting foreshadowing. Would have loved to have more time with Jenny and Ian. Lord Lovat was terrific.

  2. Loved the fights with jenny. Jumped the shark with lovet and telling jaime he wanted lollybroch? Liked it better in the book? If i were claire no so sure i could be that nice to laoghaire.

  3. I thought the jump the shark scene was the whole setup with Loaghaire. None of that ever happened but might be necessary for non book readers in future seasons.

  4. Another good episode. Overall, im enjoying this season because I have completely set aside any expectations other than good acting – which we get in spades.

    I didn’t see any jumping of any sharks. In fact, assuming the so-called JTS was related to Laoghaire, I think the shoes version is more plausible and better sets up events in future seasons. As much as Claire and Jamie confide in each other, Never neve made sense to me that Claire forgot to mention L’s involvement.

    • Show’s not shoes. Can’t seem to edit for typos!

    • Here! Here! That always stood as “character break”for me in THE BOOKS!!!! C confiding to J about something so important makes sense😋 So now all of us have to wait and see how this storyline will turnout!!!! I’m actually kind of excited about it!!!!!

  5. This episode was a lot easier to handle than 207. The only tears I shed was over Jamie talking to the baby in Gaelic. I hope we get a translation this week.
    “Laoghaire-gate” did put a hole in the Voyager scenario. Anne’s reasoning was that “because of something that’s going to happen ‘down the line’ we really felt that we needed to redeem her a little bit or it was going to make what happens ‘down the line’ just so implausible. It will be interesting to see how the fans react.”
    As for Jamie throwing Lovat’s teeth into the fire, having Clive use prosthetics would make it difficult for him to speak so they had Jamie throw his grandfather’s whisky flask into the fire instead. Really made an impression, didn’t it?
    By the way, Simon was Jamie’s uncle, not his cousin. Why did Jamie call him cousin?
    My only disappointment was the very short time we spent at Lallybroch. After waiting so long to see Jenny and Ian, It would have been nice to spend at least half of episode 208 at home “with the family.”
    By the way, was Jamie really going to sign Lallybroch over to Lovat in return for his support? That seemed more like a “jump the shark” moment than Laoghaire-gate.” No way would Jamie give up his heritage, though it may have been a ruse since Claire had her fake vision before he could sign the deed. I hope Anne will clear up that inconsistency.
    Will be glad to see Dougal next week and possibly Rupert, Angus, and Willie! Tulach Ard!

  6. Loved the scene with Jamie and the baby. His hand playing with wee ones fingers! So adorable! Hated seeing Missy L from the witches’ tria but I get the need to place back in the story for the future.

  7. (1)Did anyone notice that Murtagh says he’s going to be a father?!!!.in the scene when the mail is being opened..(2) love that Jamie is now privy to the part Colum and Laoghaire played in Claire’s arrest & trial at Cairnsmore…and good to know Ms. Fitz was on the side of Claire… but the problem with this “Jump the Shark” moment is it will be difficult for anyone to believe what happens later in Voyager … if we have a season 3…. I’m with Jamie…I could not forgive so easily!.. (3) enjoyed Claire’s tongue lashing of Leery! Now I wonder how the writers are going to present the situation later???? Won’t be believable…(5) would like to see more moments with J&C…I understand we need plot..but we still need the J&C moments that help solidify the power of their relationship and their bond….overall I thought the episode was good.. with ep. 207 being a hard act to follow……

  8. Well, of course they could not put everything that was in the book in this season. However, that being said, I did not like the scene they invented with the blonde who idolizes Jamie (I can never remember how to spell her name). Last night’s episode was vastly different from how events happened in the book. I know it is made for a tv audience and has to be different, but last night’s episode was the most different that I have noticed. I love both books and show though!!!!!

    • I have to agree. I felt the episode was almost a factual dialogue just to get through all that had to be covered, without the warmth and depth of personal exchanges. I also didn’t like the involvement with Leoghaire, why are they having her become a focal instead of secondary character? Her evilness comes out in Voyager, which is a great scene, as well as what happens later in the last book(SPOILER!) when she appeals to Claire for medical help. I guess I just don’t understand WHY the writers feel the need to alter the secondary story when there is so much to deal with for primary characters. For example, what was the need to have Collum with Lord Lovatt when it doesn’t positively impact the story? BLOGGERS: I am all for change in story when it’s needed–fully recognizing that all aspects of the book cannot hbe included or can’t be filmed, but help me understand why fundamental facts are altered when they could stay intact. Thanks and happy watching!

  9. I loved it! Yes a big deviation from the book but I understand the reasons and as always I trust Ron et al completely. Beautifully done gang!

  10. A little more of the love-making scene would go a long way. It IS why we watch. I hate Laoghaire and was hoping they we going to leave her behind for Lovat. lol Wasn’t prepared to see her in this episode, but did like that Jamie didn’t negotiate with her, reconcile with her, or when thanking her, he made it clear he was doing so because he was told to.

    • Great comment! Didn’t notice that…but Jamie did make it clear that he was thanking her because he was told too…..but somehow I bet she don’t get that memo…..

  11. Great transitional episode. The casting of Clive Russell as Lord Lovat was a stroke of genius, as his imposing figure at 6’6″ commanded every scene that he was in. A stark contrast to the life Jamie and Claire was living in Paris among the French aristocracy where political backstabbing was a sophisticated art form, whereas the politics of the clans which is no less dangerous, but at least the Scots are upfront about what they intend to do and why, at any cost and will tell you straightaway to your face. I really could have done without the return of Laoghaire, but I do understand that in the story arc of the television series, it was a necessary plot development for the upcoming Outlander Season 3, as the book Voyager will be adapted, where Laoghaire does make an appearance.

  12. Loved the baby scene with Jamie, Loved that they are finally back in Scotland, loved the Scottish themed score! I think the story will hang together with these deviations, didn’t mind the addition of Laoghaire, but thought it unnecessary and time could have been better spent with Jenny and Ian and some more Jamie and Claire interactions. I think, based on Jamie telling Claire about Lovat’s belief in the supernatural, that J and C planned the ” vision ” so Jamie didn’t have to sign, but, maybe C just thought it up in the moment. Bottom line is that I enjoyed it very much.

    Anne Hetherington
  13. Did I hear correctly that Jamie called Jenny’s baby Catrina (or “Caitriona” :P)?

  14. What I can say is that this is the first episode I have watched that I didn’t feel the immediate urge to view again. I watched it a second time this morning and was still left a bit “flat” afterwards. I am not saying it was a bad episode, it just didn’t do much for me. (“Faith” is a hard episode to follow). This episode was not meant to be emotionally driven like so many in the first half of the season, and was more about moving the political story forward than dealing with the relationships. Clearly Jamie and Claire are reconciled, more themselves, affectionate and working as a team. I think we all could have done with a little more of those scenes as a balm for the pain of Paris before we jumped right into the death march to Culloden. The scenes at Lallybroch were originally in Ep 208 which was originally 90 mins long, so they moved those scenes to Ep 209 and my guess is that there was probably a lot more there to give us comfort that had to be cut in order to cover so much ground in this episode. (It will be interesting to read the script). The most moving scene was Jamie with wee Kitty. The look on Claire’s face seeing him with a baby girl that might have been Faith was heartbreaking. I loved the conversation with Jenny. Lord Lovat was perfectly cast and portrayed, just as I imagined the old buzzard. I think Anne Kenney found a creative way of getting us to the objective of this episode, getting the men of Lovat to join the Jacobite army, with a more expedient chain of events. I preferred this way of bringing Colum back than in the book. This makes more sense and brings the clan politics into play. With the Mackenzies and Frasers being large and influential clans declaring neutrality, the other clans will think twice about committing their men. I thought Colum was a bit disingenuous pleading innocence in his role in the witch trial. He was involved and he didn’t want Ned Gowan to defend Claire. Too much valuable screen time was devoted to Laoghaire. I understand that because she is so pivotal in Voyager, and has not been seen since “The Devil’s Mark” that we needed to be reminded that she is still around and hint that this is not the last we will see of her, but with so little screen time, they sure devoted a lot of the episode to her. Clearly she is not penitent. She knows that the only way she can gain Jamie’s forgiveness is to first gain Claire’s , thus the kneeling, weeping and pleading. Smelling his shirt, and then saying that someday she hopes to earn Jamie’s forgiveness (and love), makes it clear that she is still obsessed with having him. I don’t see this as a “jump the shark” development, but I know that a lot of fans are disappointed with this decision and it will create a ripple in the fandom force.

    Loved the theme song going back to English with the new images of the second half in Scotland and the fox title card was great. Generally the lighting both indoors and outdoors was excessively dark. Much darker than I remember in Season 1. I expected the palate to change and for the weather to be “Scotland” but everything was darker than usual.

    • Thank goodness someone else wasn’t enthralled by this episode. I feel exactly the same way about it…flat. Not a bad episode, but one that I’ll probably not go back to very often (like Both Sides Now in season 1). Almost all the points you made have been what I’ve been pondering today. It was very heavy on maneuvering all the players into place. Lovely scene with Jamie and the baby. I totally get why Column and Leery showed up here but it seemed odd, clunky. It felt very much like they needed to be presented for what’s to come. It felt awkward to me. It was interesting that the responsibility for the witch trail was brought out in the open, both Leery and Column’s part…wonder what that is for. This is where my knowledge of the books is starting to bug me. I probably would have thought it was just a fine EP if not. I’m not a purist and stuck on “that wasn’t how it was in the book!!!” it’s just that with my knowledge of the books I’m now thinking “huuuuummmmm, what’s the purpose of that being there?” Your point about Column bringing in clan politics makes sense. The weakening of the young Simon character really sucked some of the wind out of it for me. He was just so uninteresting and that whole thing with him and Leery felt like a contrived, badly done community theater piece. We shall see as the rest of the season unfolds the purpose of that. I did not mind Leery re-appearing, it will be less jarring in season 3, but once again Claire’s manipulation of Leery for her own purposes was weird and clunky. Based on how Leery and Jamie were left, I think we may see that Claire’s interference will come back to bite her in her lovely round arse. All in all the changes served to get the plot right back to where it needed to be with Lovat’s men committed and Lord Lovat having his cake and eating it too.

      There was one thing I did not like, Claire suddenly becoming a seer. It was so awkwardly done that it made me wonder, did they plan to make it look that awkward? Cait is a much better actress than that scene made her look. I totally get why it was done, but Claire already had practice playing the white witch and did a much more convincing job in the star chamber. I know a vast majority of the fandom will disagree, but I don’t think the reappearance of Leery is what Diana was referring to as the “jump the shark” scene. It’s just that she’s so hated by most fans they never want to see her again under any circumstances.

      Overall the episode got the job done, moved all the players into their position, but beyond that had little to engage or hold me, make me want to go back and watch it again and again. I’ll probably watch it again with the podcast and that will be enough for me.

      • As I recall, Claire was always hesitant and cautious about being referred to as any type of witch, so the fact that she is now playing the role of a “seer” was a little suspect…I can understand why it was done, but didn’t feel as though it really added to the episode.

        I agree with many of the others that this episode was a good transition piece to get us into position but definitely had a “flat” tone to it, barring our visit to Lallybroch.

  15. I felt the show’s inclusion of Loaghaire in EP2x08 was a thoughtful and sound one. I’m a reader of the books, and I had a hard time getting my head around the Loaghaire storyline in Voyager (and will add here that I was less resentful of the character Jamie than I was of Jenny, who orchestrated the arrangement, though well-intended, I’m sure). I needed this bit in EP2x08, as writer Anne Kenney put it: “to make what’s coming down the line less implausible,”… Mission accomplished in my book. Though the idea of “Mrs. Loaghaire Fraser” still makes my stomach churn, at least it doesn’t seem so far-fetched and shocking now. I’m better prepared this time around.

    And speaking of Anne Kenney… her comment in the Behind-The-Scenes segment about Jamie’s quiet moment with his infant niece Katherine — that having a scene with the actor Sam Heughan holding a baby was pure “catnip” — was spot-on. It was incredibly sweet, and so poignant in the wake of the emotionally charged EP2x07. Well done, writers, producers, and actors all.

    I am lover of both books AND the series — enjoying the brilliance and merits of both — and never feel disappointed at what’s omitted, embellished or changed from either/or medium. “Outlander” is writing, acting, and pure entertainment at its very best.

    • Also wanted to add in reference to Voyager: As much as I didn’t want to envision my hero Jamie being “untrue” to my heroine Claire, it was implausible that he would go 20 years without getting remarried — he was as convinced of Claire being gone FOREVER as she was convinced of his having died at Culloden — for him not to move on in some way. A female character was needed to fill up space in the 20-year “romance” gap for Jamie, and in my opinion, the “devil” I know (in the form of Longhaire) is better than the devil I don’t. Book readers see how that marriage plays out. No threat there. True and timeless love, as always in Outlander, prevails.

      • Agree with what you said about Jamie not remarrying in the twenty years being implausible mostly because of Jenny. I don’t think that Jamie, himself, would have considered getting remarried without the major push. Also, as much as I dislike the thought of it, I agree that marriage to Leery was the best situation as far as Jamie being able to reunite with Claire after her return. Between the mistreatment Leery received from at least one, if not both, of her husbands and the fact that when she finally got her lifelong wish of marriage to Jamie she could never separate Claire from him (esp not in bed when he dreamed of Claire and she knew it) and couldn’t enjoy her marriage to him or let him be happy with her. (Sorry about the run-on sentence.)

        Think how hard it would have been for Jamie if he had married someone who might have really loved him, been friends with him and actually provided him with a child or two before Claire came back…

    • I have to disagree a bit that it made what’s to come in Voyager more plausible. To me it’s made it even less plausible now. In the book, Jamie had no idea about Leery’s part in getting Claire to the witch trial, now he knows and despises her. He also did not know about who put the ill-wish in their bed in the book, he does in the show. They did not part on good terms, He apologized for something to please Claire, not because he felt any guilt or remorse. So how does Jenny go about convincing him to marry Leery now? I think we will see more of Leery before the end of this season…something’s up.

  16. Why would you waist time on Longhaire !You kill me taking someone not important at all .And build them up. Use that time to build Jamie and Clair up ! That’s what We love.

  17. After the emotional roller coaster of “Faith”, this episode did feel flat and I agree that it will not be one of the episodes I rewatch many times, much like the Watch and the Search in Season One. The color palette, the dimmer lighting, the grimy looking shirts, and mussed hair are in such sharp contrast to Paris. They must have been freezing filming this. The breath can be seen coming from their noses when they speak. Along with Colum’s death having been moved, we also seem to have skipped over Prestonpans so I wonder when we will meet Lord John Grey for the first time? Being a fan of the books as well as the series, I found I needed to go back and read the chapter on the Fox’s Lair in order to get all the political intrigue straight in my mind after viewing the episode. I imagine that the television series only fans may have trouble sorting all that out. So what was the Jump the Shark moment in this episode if DG says in wasn’t the inclusion of Laoghaire in the episode? Sam is still inhabiting Jaime’s persona. I noted that he still holds the fingers of his left hand in stiff extension, even without the brace to recall his broken hand. I will watch this for the third time tonight on my big screen to see what else comes to the fore.

    Louise Tellalian
    • Hi Louise – There is an entire episode devoted to Prestonpan and we will meet Lord John Grey in that episode. Colum will be back. He isn’t dead yet but it is clear that he is not long for this world. After listening to Ron’s podcast the combination of too little screen time and some production challenges left us with very little of what Tony Graphia wrote for Lallybroch and what we got was a hack job with a total loss of our timeline and continuity. It appears that there was enough material written to give us an entire episode at Lallybroch but most of it got cut because it had to be moved into “The Fox’s Lair”. Ron felt this episode was rather claustrophobic because so much was indoors due to a combination of storyline and bad weather that drove them indoors for scenes that could have played outdoors. Some of the outdoor scenes cut from Lallybroch would have helped in many ways. In the end, I put the blame on STARZ for not giving Ron sufficient episodes to do justice to DIA. I hope they give Voyager 20 episodes over 2 seasons even if it means we have to wait until Fall 2017. STARZ is demanding the impossible from an elite team of amazing directors, writers, actors and creative staff.

  18. Enjoyed the old closeness between Jamie and Claire again! My favorite scene was Sam holding Jenny’s bairn that night. Now, as Anne Kenney said “That was catnip!”

  19. Having Leery in this episode weakens Bree’s best loved and anticipated moment in DOA. Although there is no way to know the future events, Anne spoke of, Y wish it had been reconsidered.

    Carlita Costello
  20. Most endearing moment… Jamie and the baby. I’m all for keeping the ship on course for season three! Lots of twists and turns and for those who think we know exactly what’s going to happen it’s nice not to

  21. Excellent episode – so tightly written! I’m a book reader and thought the Laoghaire storyline was great – I take the books on their own merits and the show on its own merits. Very accustomed to doing that with Game of Thrones and The Walking Dead. My favorite scene was the White Lady Vision scene with Jamie and Claire teaming up again in that awesome way they have. I also loved Colum’s reaction! I thought the episode was brilliant overall – the music was superb, the costumes, sets, everything was great. And seeing Scotland again is bittersweet, but beautiful. And as always, outstanding casting and acting.

  22. Just can’t get my head round all that time spent with Laughaire, didn’t think it did credit to the writers, or the storyline. I’m not a writer but there are ways of incorporating characters as a reminder of who they are without all this shenanigans with her, think they missed the opportunity to really bring back that family bonding that is J’s raison d’aitre for fighting for them & the tenants of Lallybroch. I did enjoy the scene with the baby very much, but it just all felt a bit hollow & I think the actors were let down by big holes in the script, too much manoeuvring to get things in place too quickly

  23. a mi me ha gustado. aunque Colum no lo esperaba hoy. la escena del bebe, encantadora. en general, me ha gustado el viejo zorro

  24. So emotional to see again Colum, the clans, the power’s relationship! NOW WE ARE IN THE REAL AND PAINFUL HISTORY OF SCOTLAND. Jamie, now, is THE HIGHLANDER. It’s time to be ready, for all. I see Ep. 8 like a breakthrough moment. A before and an after line. For the characters, also. It has been much fast, maybe too much, maybe a bit disorienting, but “Je suis prete” 😊😊💓

  25. ‘One of my least favorite episodes. Poorly written, directed and thought out. I keep hearing that the story must be explained so non book readers can better understand the content going forward. It is this desire that epitomizes what is wrong with Season 2 in general. Bringing Leery back was contrived, weak and does nothing, going forward, to explain Jamie’s marriage to her in Voyager. The scene with Simon’s son spouting poetry was just crap & a waste of episode time. Claire’s white witch prophecy scene was laughable, far beneath the woman she is and the acting of fabulous Cait. Jamie’s near gifting of Lallybroch to his grandfather is totally out of character for a man of honor, substance and intelligence which Jamie is, or was, until Season 2 writers decided to make him a caricature of himself. Now that the writers have given Jamie the knowledge of Leery’s duplicity in Claire’s witch trial, how in the heck will he or the writers justify his marriage to Leery. In the quest to explain Leery’s presence in Voyager you’ve turned Jamie, once again, into less of the man that Claire loves and done nothing to truly explain why he would marry Leery 20 yrs later. At least in the book, he doesn’t know about her treachery and marries her out of loneliness and the desire to be needed. This is understandable but marrying Leery after he knows what she tried to do to Claire, is less forgivable and so bringing Leery back has done nothing to move the story anywhere other than ridiculous.
    What is missing in Season 2 is the love story written, created and acted so well in Season 1. In the quest to appeal to non book readers, the writer’s are losing the very gist of the books. Love. Soul quenching passionate love, respect, devotion, and a deep and mutual understanding between a man and a woman that survives 20 years apart. That is what we are not seeing and this is what will keep all viewers interested.
    Episode 207 broke our heart’s for Jamie and Claire. Cait’s performance was beyond wrenching and true to the depth of loss and heartbreak a women feels when losing the child she carried. The writer’s and director did an awesome job with Claire’s pain but I feel they neglected to give the same respect to Jamie. First he was made to climb the stairs like a reluctant and chastised child while being watched by an angry Claire. His face was not shown when he asked if it was a boy or girl nor when he asked if she would make him beg. Than Claire tells him about sleeping with the King not giving Jamie the opportunity to show he already knew and came to her anyway. What was lost from this interpretation is the lie that tried to come between but was banished when Claire, the strong, confident and modern woman offered herself to be beaten for the pain her lie caused Jamie. “The thought of you lying with the King hurt worse than the brand on my breast, or the cut of the lash on my naked back. But the knowledge that ye thought ye couldna trust me to love you is like waking from the hangman’s noose to feel the gutting knife sunk in my belly. Claire_ I do not know if the wound is mortal, but Claire- I do feel my heart’s blood leave me, when I look @ you.” And here, to “restore the lost truth between us” Claire offers to let Jamie beat her to which Jamie responded, ” I beat you once in justice, Sassenach, and ye threatened to disembodied me with my own dirk. Now you’ll ask me to whip ye wi’ nettles”……”Is my pride worth so much to you, then” Claire responded with “Yes! Yes, it bloody is” This is what is missing from Season 2. Two people coming together, working, talking, loving, forgiving, and mending their equally broken hearts. So many lost opportunities to share this with audience in the attempt to be all inclusive with non book readers.
    Follow the story Diana wrote and you won’t go wrong. Don’t add storylines that are not there, they aren’t needed. I do understand that some liberty is needed to bring the books to the screen but rewriting a character’s role just for future expediency is bad policy. Please remember that this story isn’t just about a strong, modern woman but also of a proud, confident, kind, intelligent and modern man she grows to love. Show both sides

    • YES!!!!!!! You said it beautifully!!!!!

    • Oddio, dear Sue, those words from the book nearly killed me! It’s not your fault, obviously, but Diana Gabaldon’s 😉 I wasn’t so “delicate” person before to bang on Outlander, I swear!
      Since I started watching the TV series, last october, and then reading books, last December, I feel like in need clinic aid 😉 and I don’t even know the reason. My partner brought home the DVD and then he gave me books because we are both fixated with Scotland, England and their history: SINCE THEN, NO ONE IN MY FAMILY HAS BEEN QUIET AND AT PEACE 😉 I’m not a fan, I’m a tribute to Outlander 😉
      I mention that to explain my fascination with Outlander’s story and characters.
      Diana Gabaldon is a genius, she told us a story who belong to every woman, man and land on earth, her characters are archetypes, like a contemporary Grimm’s fairy-tale they speak to us the story of our human journey. I also think she did so in a truly revolutionary way.
      But we can’t superimpose books and TV series, words and images, are “medium” so much different, I think it’d be even unfair.
      Why couldn’t we separate the books’ emotions from the TV Series’ choices?
      It has been a great challenge for producers, directors, writers, cast, crew, TV Starz – a hard, crazy bet 😉 – but I think THEY WON.
      Sometime, people have to be let free. The characters, also.
      At soon,
      emanuela

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